Earlier today:Clinton Tells NYC Women Obama "Is The One"

She pretty much won me over towards the last half of her primary season. I won't pretend here that I don't absolutely respect Senator Clinton. Yeah she rocks my world! And If I have an iota of respect for her I will honor her legacy on behalf of women and vote for Obama.  I don't come easy into it. I happen to like Obama but FISA and the hitch in the Pro choice stance makes my skin crawl. But watching McCain makes my skin burn!

Clinton said,"this is the man -- this is the one -- we should be voting for. ... Do it for your children. Do it for your jobs. Do it for the education of future generations."

Anyways here is the classy lady who walks her talk.

"I've been trying to exercise a little bit, which I'm told does wonders for a person."

With that line, Sen. Hillary Clinton drew the first of several laughs from the largely female crowd in attendance at her joint appearance with a comparatively less energetic Barack Obama Thursday morning at the Hilton Towers in New York City. Hosted by Women for Obama and the DNC's Women's Leadership Forum, the event was another pit stop on the "unity" tour that kicked off in New Hampshire two weeks ago.

And, at least as a speaker, Sen. Hillary Clinton proved that she is currently in tip-top shape. After noting that Obama told her she looked "rested" at an event last night, the New York Democrat admitted to reaping the benefits of a non-campaign schedule, but also showed she is still willing to bring some partisan fire and enthusiasm whenever she is invited to join him on the trail this fall.

On issues ranging from education to abortion rights to global warming, Clinton pointed to Obama as the superior candidate for women. On climate change, Clinton took a moment to mock President Bush by accusing him of just discovering the issue months before leaving office. "Gosh, this is a problem, and I sure hope the next president does something about it," Clinton said while impersonating the president -- adding, in her own voice, "well so do I!"

But beyond the yucks and the fired-up phrasing, the former presidential candidate did also take a moment to talk about the still-raw wounds dating from the primary season.

"Now I've had countless conversations since the end of my campaign," she began. "And I know how difficult it is for people who have invested their time, energy and emotion -- just their entire being -- into any campaign or cause. ... When it is over, I know how difficult that is ... how challenging it is to turn on a dime. It is a process. It does take time for people to take a deep breath, to go forward. ... But anyone who voted for me has so much in common with those who voted for Barack. ... It is critical that we join forces. The Democratic Party is a family -- sometimes a dysfunctional family -- but it is a family. We care about what is going to happen to health care [and education], and in Afghanistan in Iraq. ... That work cannot be done if we do not have a Democratic president in the White House!"

As she wrapped up her remarks and began to introduce Obama, Clinton said, "this is the man -- this is the one -- we should be voting for. ... Do it for your children. Do it for your jobs. Do it for the education of future generations."



Display:


Senator (2.00 / 3)

Hillary, lets put the boys and kids to sleep and go get us the white house for Obama


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:49:27 AM EST

Re: Senator (2.00 / 2)

Ten days old. Almost as many diaries. Hundreds of comments, most of them attempts to sow division.

Go check out the poster's history before you are fooled


by duende on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:27:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator (none / 0)

I thought I asked for the boys and kids to go to bed.

But let's take look my diary history:

1. So where is your tipping point on Obama's moves to the center? ( Intent: Subtle hint at -Maybe if you stop and think what your core issue is, you'll see that Obama is not against it)

2. John McCain new Ad: Don't go for words of Hope ( Intent : Just his new AD and not bad one- honest opinion many agreed with)

3. Obama: I Haven't Moved To The Center( ADDED the cutest video of Obama's oldest daughter):  (Intent: Vast majority of his stances if researched have been old stances not flip flops & OMG I found an adorable video of the family)

4. Don't be an Answer troll: ( Intent: I was addressing you and your fellow kind being disruptive trolls in diaries)

5. Edwards would 'seriously consider' VP offer : ( Intent: Edwards supporters - he is up for the VP position)

6.  Obama And FISA today: Grand Political move ( Intent: It was a good political move - no comment made on how I felt about FISA)

7.  JesseJackson Jr ( not his dad) needs his nuts cut off: ( Intent: Rude child acting not any different than Mydd Answer trolls)

8. Clinton Tells NYC Women Obama "Is The One": ( Intent: Every time I feel down about Hillary not being the nominee- she lifts me up and reminds me what is at stake)


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:21:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator (2.00 / 5)

"1. So where is your tipping point on Obama's moves to the center?" (Intent: not so subtle hint that Obama supporters are blind followers.

"2. John McCain new Ad: Don't go for words of Hope " (Intent: give positive McCain ad some exposure on a Dem site.)

"3. Obama: I Haven't Moved To The Center( ADDED the cutest video of Obama's oldest daughter): " (Intent: Rehash every single supposed flip-flop for the umpteenth time. Add a video of oldest daughter for cover.)

4. Don't be an Answer troll: ( Intent: Please let us troll here without opposition. )

5. Edwards would 'seriously consider' VP offer : ( Intent: Hillary supporters, they are trying to steal the VP spot. Please get all outraged.)

6.  Obama And FISA today: Grand Political move ( Intent: See, he is nothing more than a regular politician. )

7.  JesseJackson Jr ( not his dad) needs his nuts cut off: ( Intent: Take attention away from what Jesse Sr. said. )

8. Clinton Tells NYC Women Obama "Is The One": ( Intent: Cover, pure and simple by posting an old statement from Hillary.)

Gee, that was fun. Can we do it again?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:36:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator (none / 0)

Actually it is from a NYT report of a meeting that happened this morning

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/11/us/pol itics/11obamacnd.html?hp


by wrb on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator (none / 0)

Yes, I realized that after I wrote that comment. I thought it was something from the unity appearance.

So I made one small error. What about the rest of the comment?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:11:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator (none / 0)

I haven't paid enough attention to the diarist's other writings to have an opinion.

I find the few sentences of this one obnoxious but recced it anyway because I think the article is worth bringing to folks' attention


by wrb on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:21:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

sic probo (none / 0)


by duende on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:32:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks (2.00 / 4)

for the diary.

The more that some of the real Democrats that support Hillary (not the repub trolls) see what she is saying and doing, the more you will see them come to support or at least vote for Obama.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:09:03 PM EST

Re: Clinton Tells NYC Women Obama (2.00 / 2)

I'm loving Hillary. The Greatest American Women ever.

Obama/Clinton.


by Makey on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:21:40 PM EST

Re: Clinton Tells NYC Women Obama (2.00 / 1)

Okay, Clinton has a lot going for her, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call her the greatest in history.

Harriet Tubman, Susan B. Anthony, Rosa Parks, Grace Hopper, Helen Keller, and many others come to mind...


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:36:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Agent Provocateur (2.00 / 5)

You really think we'll all fall for this attempt to sound like a democrat.

Troll away. I, for one, am not fooled.


by duende on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:26:04 PM EST

Re: Agent Provocateur (2.00 / 1)

I agree. Real democrats don't say the democratic candidate for President makes their skin crawl, regardless of the issue.


The direct use of force is such a poor solution to any problem, it is generally employed only by small children and large nations. -- David Friedman
by pollbuster on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 12:47:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Agent Provocateur (2.00 / 1)

I rec'd the diary in spite of that comment and also in spite of believing that roxfoxy is aliveandkickin with a new username. His/her posting pattern, tone, type of comments, etc... and the timing of his/her appearance on the site are just too coincidental to ignore.

The thing that made me rec this diary is that despite believing it is a veiled attempt to provide cover to the poster, which is something alive was known to do from time to time, it does serve a purpose. I don't think the diarist really believes what they wrote here, but that doesn't invalidate the facts of the matter.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:59:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Purity Troll much? (2.00 / 3)

Why can't you just comment on a diary.


by catfish2 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 01:55:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Purity Troll much? (none / 0)

Why do you have to comment on my comment?

The questions are endless

The answers are simple


by duende on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:30:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Humming to myself (none / 0)

Damn you!  Now you put that song "still the one" in my head with the title.


Tony Romo for Secretary of Awesome
by kasjogren on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:09:15 PM EST

Good diary. (2.00 / 3)

I don't care who wrote it or what their history is. The diary doesn't say anything trollish. Thanks for a good slice of the news, an honest tone, and a diary that highlights two of our brightest political stars.


M. It's like W, but flipflopped.
by warmwaterpenguin on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:37:12 PM EST

Feel free (none / 0)

It's a free country. But context is everything. You'll see.


by duende on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 03:35:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What's the "pro-choice hitch," again? (2.00 / 1)

I lose track with all the misrepresentation of Obama's long-held beliefs that people are trying to pass off as centricism.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 02:59:32 PM EST

Re: What's the "pro-choice hitch," (none / 0)

:::crickets:::

I was wondering that myself.

so, rox, what is the pro-choice hitch again?


"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:46:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's probably late-term stuff (none / 0)

My guess is that he's talking about some late-term abortion issues that are murky even for most of the strongest pro-choice advocates.  Doesn't change Obama's 100% from Planned Parenthood one bit.


The pebbles have voted and the avalanche has begun.

President-Elect "That One"

by Dracomicron on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:59:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

Clinton has more swing state support so she is a better general election candidate. She is a proven leader with accomplishments, Clinton is the best Democratic candidate and I hope she gets the nomination.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:37:12 PM EST

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

When will you be ready to accept a different result and start to work to take control of this country away from the people who have been dragging us into a hole for the last 8 years? After the convention? After the election? In 4 years? When?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:46:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

I answer your questions by asking you the same questions:

When will you be ready to accept a different result and start to work to take control of this country away from the people who have been dragging us into a hole for the last 8 years? After the convention? After the election? In 4 years? When?


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

There is no reason why I should answer your question if you won't answer mine, but I'll give you an answer anyway.

I am already working towards that goal by supporting the Democratic candidate and down-ticket candidates. I will not hope that a change will be made 2 1/2 months before the election to put forward a candidate without financing in place, no on the ground game in place, and who would face a massive back-lash from her own party if she somehow got the nomination away from the candidate with the most pledged delegates.

There I answered you. Your turn. And, please answer my first question before answering this comment.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:55:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

There is no reason why I should answer your question if you won't answer mine...

I wasn't looking for answers to the questions.  They were rhetorical questions. The purpose of the questions was to show that all the reasons you gave to support Obama could also be used to support Clinton.

You say you're working toward the goal of reversing the damage of the GWB years, but I believe Clinton can do that job much better than Obama. And as to the financing, It's obvious that whichever candidate is nominated they will get a lot of financing, or they could opt for public financing like McCain and not have to worry about financing.

You imply Hillary would face a massive backlash from her own party if she was nominated, but the same is true of Obama. Only Hillary is a better unifier so she would be able to better solve the problem, plus her supporters tend to come from demographics that are much more reliable voters so a backlash is much less harmful to her than Obama.

Furthermore, you seem to imply that a teeny tiny lead in pledged delegates makes someone automatically the rightful candidate.  But Hillary won the secret ballot vote. So more people actually voted for her in the only true way to find out who someone really wants to be president.  Group pressure to vote for a specific candidat and voter manipulation at caucuses that represent a tiny fraction of the electorate do not represent the people's true wishes.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:11:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

If Clinton were the nomninee, 95% of Obama supporters would've been behind her.  I know I would have.  But that is not the case Obama is/will be the nominee.

The primary ended a month ago.  Honestly, why are you still fighting it?


by NewOaklandDem on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

The primary ended a month ago.  Honestly, why are you still fighting it?

I'm not fighting anything. I'm saying that I want HRC to be the nominee. The primaries are over but neither of the top candidates got enough pledged delegates to win the nomination.  Thus, the nominee will be chosen during the convention.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:27:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

I get really tired of answering these tired talking points over and over, but here goes one more time.

It doesn't really matter who we think will do a better job. That part of the selection process is over. I preferred Edwards to both of them. I didn't get my wish. I've learned to accept that. I wanted Dean in 2004 and got Kerry. I learned to accept that also.

Financing isn't as simple as you make it out to be. Obama has already raised a ton of money. Hillary is still in debt from the primary. That makes a difference whether you are willing to admit it or not.

Hillary is not a better unifier than Obama. She can't even convince her supporters, like yourself, to back Obama. On top of that, Obama has already gone a long ways toward uniting the Democratic party. There aren't that many holdouts and the number is coming down all the time. On the other hand, the most reliable group of Democratic voters is the black vote. They vote overwhelmingly Democratic in every election. If it is thought that Hillary stole the nomination away from a black man the backlash could be terrible. Are you willing to throw away 15-20% of the Democratic vote?

It isn't a teeny-tiny lead. It was a significant lead. It was significant after Wisconsin and kept growing all the way to the end of the primaries.

So we are still supposed to buy into some secret sub-set of primaries in order to give Hillary the nod? At first it was, "only big states matter." Then it was, "you can't win without Appalachia". Let's see, there was also the whole, "hardworking white people" nonsense.

We had a primary campaign that lasted several months. We came out of that with a presumptive nominee. All of the other candidates have accepted that nominee and have stated their support, including Hillary. What more do you have to see or hear to get behind him?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:26:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

It doesn't really matter who we think will do a better job. That part of the selection process is over.

The selection process is not over.  It is over when the delegates vote in August.

Obama has already raised a ton of money. Hillary is still in debt from the primary. That makes a difference whether you are willing to admit it or not.

I admit it makes a difference but it's a small difference. You don't seem to take into account that Hillary might be able to raise more money than Obama. But it has already been proven that financing does not guarantee a presidential victory. In their book Freakonomics Levit and Dubner proved (with a lot of evidence) that financing has little effect on which of the top candidates wins. Also, Hillary frequently won big when Obama outspent her more than 2-1. This evidence proves beyond a doubt that Obama's possible future money advantage would have little or no effect on getting him more votes.

Hillary is not a better unifier than Obama. She can't even convince her supporters, like yourself, to back Obama. On top of that, Obama has already gone a long ways toward uniting the Democratic party. There aren't that many holdouts and the number is coming down all the time.

Hillary unified the party better than Obama has ever done. Remember 2007? She sought unity by repeatedly saying she wanted the dream ticket but Obama refused to do the same.  That is an example of her unifying the party and Obama refusing to unify the party.  Hillary sought to unify the party by bringing voters into the fold in Florida and Michigan, while Obama divided the party by blocking efforts to bring the Fl/MI voters into the Democratic voting pool. This massive suppression of voter rights greatly harmed Democratic unity. The Obama camp divided the party racially when they started making baseless claims that "the first black president" Bill Clinton was racist. I could go on and on.

And you talk about "holdouts" but a lot of people are not holding out; they're choosing to vote for McCain. Also, a lot of former Clinton supporters say they will not vote for Obama.  It's not a small number. In a recent poll 54% of Clinton voters said they were planning to back Obama. That means about half of 17 million plus voters will not vote for Obama.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12153935 4782631403.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

And as to Hillary not convincing her supporters to vote for Obama, take into account that the Obama camp has been overall very negative toward Hillary Clinton supporters, but that Hillary Clinton supporters have been much more mature and kind to Obama supporters.  I know Hillary Clinton supporters who have been threatened with rape and death and more supporters who have been abused verbally in a sexist and vicious manner. So, I can understand why so many HRC supporters do not want to vote for Obama. However, since the Hillary camp has been much kinder to the Obama people, it would be easider for her to bring Obama supporters to her kinder group then to bring her supporters to Obama's group which has been very abusive to her supporters.

...the most reliable group of Democratic voters is the black vote. They vote overwhelmingly Democratic in every election.

Nevertheless, seniors are much more likely to vote than younger people and Clinton got the overwhelming majority of the senior vote whereas a large chunk of Obama's voters are the much less reliable young voters. Also, women are swing voters and Hillary got the vast majority of the non-black women vote. Kerry only got 2% more women votes than Bush and that was a major reason why he lost. The women vote is crucial to winning and Clinton has it. And since blacks consistently vote Democratic then it is likely that they will mostly vote for Hillary. Remember, the Clintons did an enormous amount of good for black Americans and most black voters supported Hillary last year.

If it is thought that Hillary stole the nomination away from a black man the backlash could be terrible. Are you willing to throw away 15-20% of the Democratic vote?

Hillary won the secret ballot vote.  It's as simple as that. There is no basis to say she stole the election if more people voted for her when given a chance to express their true opinion in the secret ballot. I find it highly unlikely that every black voter will refuse to vote for a woman who they know has the motivation and ability to help them and who they know got more secret ballot votes than Obama. And you are greatly overestimating the number of black voters. Black people represent 12% of the U.S. population and about 10% of black voters tend to vote Republican.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic s_of_the_United_States

Furthermore, most black voters live in the south which is very Republican. The general election is a winner takes all system. Democrats usually lose southern states despite that they get about 90% of the black vote. So. Obama won't have much more advantage from the black vote than any other Democratic candidate.

It [pledged delegate lead] isn't a teeny-tiny lead. It was a significant lead. It was significant after Wisconsin and kept growing all the way to the end of the primaries.

Clinton won 1640 pledged delegates. Obama won 1763 pledged delegates. so Obama has a 123 delegate lead out of 3,403 total pledged delegates. That's about 4% which in my opinion is a teeny tiny part of the total number of pledged delegates. Also, Obama's pledged delegate lead would be even smaller counting the full Florida and Michigan delegation. And Obama's very small lead includes undemocratic caucuses which don't accurately reflect voter preference.

What more do you have to see or hear to get behind him?

It boggles my mind as to why you think people should automatically back Obama when the nominee has not been chosen.  Hillary is the best general election candidate and the best leader in my opinion.  Thus, I want her to be nominated.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:29:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (1.00 / 1)

"And as to Hillary not convincing her supporters to vote for Obama, take into account that the Obama camp has been overall very negative toward Hillary Clinton supporters, but that Hillary Clinton supporters have been much more mature and kind to Obama supporters."
It is really difficult to stay civil when I read something like this, but I'm making an effort to keep this from descending into a flame war. All I'll say is that this is not the way many people see it. It can only be believed if you have a one-sided view of the campaign.

Hillary unified the party better than Obama has ever done. Remember 2007? She sought unity by repeatedly saying she wanted the dream ticket but Obama refused to do the same.
I remember Hillary offering the vice president slot to Obama after it became apparent that Obama was going to win. That's not exactly a magnanimous gesture.

Nevertheless, seniors are much more likely to vote than younger people and Clinton got the overwhelming majority of the senior vote
Yes, seniors are more reliable voters. They are also more likely to vote in the best interests of the party. Obama does need to keep the youth vote engaged and he is doing a good job of that so far. Women voters have moved to Obama in large numbers since the primary. All of the polls show Obama with a large lead over McCain among women voters. In this section you also dismiss concerns about the black vote. You sure are taking them for granted.

Hillary won the secret ballot vote.
There is no such thing as the "secret ballot". There were primaries in every state and territory. Some held caucuses, others had primaries. Of the ones that had primaries, some were open and some closed. There is nothing inherently undemocratic about caucuses. They have been used in this country to pick candidates since the beginning. Please stop picking some sub-set of the primary votes to find a way to say that Hillary won. She didn't. She has admitted this. Why can't you?

Furthermore, most black voters live in the south which is very Republican.
I'll be sure to tell that to the 75% of Detroit, Michigan that is black.

That's about 4% which in my opinion is a teeny tiny part of the total number of pledged delegates.
If John Kerry had won 4% more of the electoral college votes than Bush we wouldn't even be having this conversation. Kerry would be running for re-election.

It boggles my mind as to why you think people should automatically back Obama when the nominee has not been chosen.  
The nominee is a formality that will be dealt with at the convention. The candidate has already been chosen. For the last time, Hillary has accepted this, why haven't you?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:42:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

Care to explain the tr, roxy? Or was that just a shot from the shadows?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:42:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

...it became apparent that Obama was going to win.

It's never been apparent that Obama was going to win the nomination.  Neither candidate has enough pledged delegates to win.

They [seniors] are also more likely to vote in the best interests of the party.

That's not true. Seniors are swing voters.

Women voters have moved to Obama in large numbers since the primary

You provide no evidence of this so I'm not sure if that is the reality. However, the point I'm making is that Clinton would be a stronger general election candidate. And the primaries proved that non-black women strongly prefer Clinton which indicates that she would be able to get more votes from non-black women than Obama.

There is no such thing as the "secret ballot".

Yes there is. If you look it up on Google you'll find many sites that define this common term. According to Wikipedia "The secret ballot is a voting method in which a voter's choices are confidential."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_ball ot

The secret ballot system takes into account the fact that people tend to vote differently in public than they do in private. For various reasons some people do not want their family and/or community to know which candidate they prefer. A public vote pressures these people to vote for someone they don't really want to vote for. Thus, only the secret ballot system allows everyone to vote for the candidate of their real choice. Thus, the secret ballot system more accurately reflects the real choice of the people.

There is nothing inherently undemocratic about caucuses.

Caucuses pressure some people to vote for someone they do not want to vote for. A democracy works when people vote for what they believe.  The essence of democracy is that everyone has a say. Caucuses represent a much smaller percentage of the registered voters than primaries. And because caucus attendance is much longer than attendance at a polling station certain groups are discouraged from participating such as seniors and mothers with small children. So caucus voters are a lot less diverse than primary voters, and in this way caucuses are less democratic because they are less representative of the population than primaries are.

When I said, "most black voters live in the south which is very Republican." you responded by saying. "I'll be sure to tell that to the 75% of Detroit, Michigan that is black." Your response indicates that you don't believe me. The following is a link to a census map that proves that the majority of black Americans live in the south:

http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_nhblac k.html

The nominee is a formality that will be dealt with at the convention. The candidate has already been chosen.

The nomination is not a formality. Delegates vote during the convention. The voting totals are a part of history. You can look up the vote totals that candidates got during past conventions. The candidate with the most votes wins the nomination. And that candidate could be Hillary Clinton. As I've said before, Hillary won the secret ballot vote. She won almost all the key swing states which are crucial for winning the general election.  If the superdelegates' number one voting criteria is choosing the candidate most likely to win the presidency, then Hillary Clinton will win the nomination.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 10:54:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

It has been apparent to all but a few that Obama was going to win the nomination since the Wisconsin primary.

Obama's lead among women voters is 13% in most polls.  

"Obama led McCain 51 percent-38 percent in Gallup polling of 2,263 registered female voters June 5-9. The 13-percentage-point lead among women was up from 5 points the previous week, before the Democratic nomination ended. Obama now matches Clinton's performance against McCain, Gallup said Wednesday."

Of course there is such a thing as a secret ballot. However, there is no such thing that is a sub-set of the primary process. Not only that, but you can't base a primary on only a portion of the votes cast. Talk about disenfranchisement. You want to throw out the votes of voters that participated in a process that has been recognized for generations.

I'll grant you that most blacks live in the south, but I will stand by my belief that they are significant parts of the vote outside of the south. Blacks make up 20% of the population of New York City. They make up 15% of the population of Michigan. This is above the national average and is a significant percentage of the total vote in those areas.

The nomination is pretty much a formallity. Please point to the last time the pledged delegate leader was passed over for someone else. It doesn't happen.

It is your view that Hillary is the most likely to win the presidency. Others have a different view. Some see Hillary as a polarizing figure that will energize the Republican base enough to get out the vote so that McCain can win. Their hatred of Hillary is greater than their dislike of McCain.

There is more to it than the Right's dislike of Hillary. There is also the fact that Obama has a better ground game, a better get-out-the-vote organization, will employ the 50 state strategy, has a fund-raising advantage, will energize the black vote, and he is a most inspirational speaker to come along since JFK.

He is also the presumptive nominee which gives him a two month head start on Hillary if she were to get the nomination in August.

All of those are advantages he holds over Hillary. There is one more big one. He has Hillary's full support. She has acknowledged that he is the party's choice. She is campaigning for him. She has called for her supporters to support Obama. When will you acknowledge this? After the convention?


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 11:41:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

It has been apparent to all but a few that Obama was going to win the nomination since the Wisconsin primary.

You keep saying it is apparent that Obama is going to win the nomination but you don't provide any valid reason why he should win or any evidence that you can predict the future and know how the superdelegates are going to vote at the convention.

And regarding Obama's ability to get women votes I repeat that however many women votes Obama would get HRC would get more.

Of course there is such a thing as a secret ballot. However, there is no such thing that is a sub-set of the primary process. Not only that, but you can't base a primary on only a portion of the votes cast. Talk about disenfranchisement. You want to throw out the votes of voters that participated in a process that has been recognized for generations.

I don't want to throw out votes.  My point is that the caucus votes do not represent the people's choice, but the secret ballot votes mostly do. Thus, when determining who the people actually want to be president, it is the secret ballot vote that is the best determiner and HRC won that vote.

I'll grant you that most blacks live in the south, but I will stand by my belief that they are significant parts of the vote outside of the south. Blacks make up 20% of the population of New York City. They make up 15% of the population of Michigan. This is above the national average and is a significant percentage of the total vote in those areas.

Black voters are an important part of the vote, but the reality is that they are a small part of the vote outside of the south. I'm not doubting your statistics about NYC and Michigan but the United States is a gigantic country and the majority of votes will be from places where the vote is mostly non-black. Thus, since the majority (or all) of the south will vote Republican the black vote will not help Obama in the south much more than any other Democratic candidate. And in the north and west the same is true because the great majority of voters in those regions are non-black.

Therefore, the black vote makes a big impact on the Democratic primaries but it does not have a big impact when Democrats are competing with Republicans during the general election. The enormous advantage Obama got from the black vote during the primaries will be virtually erased if he were to compete in the general election. However, HRC was very popular in Arkansas which she would probably win and her ability to get votes from non-black voters in the south in general would greatly help her win states in the south such as Florida. Thus, HRC is a much stronger candidate in the south than Obama and that's a very important consideration because if it's a close race even one state can determine whether Democrats win or Republicans win. Every state is important.

The nomination is pretty much a formallity. Please point to the last time the pledged delegate leader was passed over for someone else. It doesn't happen.

What you fail to mention is that about 20% of delegates are superdelegates so it is not the pledged delegate count that determines the nominee. I stated before that Obama has approximately a 4% lead in pledged delegate but Clinton can easily win the nomination by getting more superdelegate votes at the convention. That is the process.  Pledged delegates do not determine the winner according to the rules that were implemented in 1968 when the superdelegates were created.

Also, as I mentioned before Clinton won the secret ballot vote so Obama cannot say he was chosen by the people. All he has is a very small lead in pledged delegates. So he cannot win based on the voters' preference and he cannot win from the pledged delegates so the winner, according the the rules, should be chosen by the superdelegates. Voting begins in August and until the votes are counted there is no nominee and there is no way of knowing for sure how the delegates will vote.

As to when the last time the pledged delegate winner lost the nomination, there has never been a pledged delegate winner who lost the election since 1968 when the superdelegate rule was created.  However, in 1968 only 13 states had state nomination elections and during 1968 and afterwards all the nominees have had large leads in pledged delegates. One of the reasons the superdelegates were created was to make a "referee" decision when no candidate has a pledged delegate lead. If Obama had gotten 2,025 pledged delegates he would automatically become the nominee, but he didn't. When a candidate cannot win by achieving the required number of pledged delegates then the superdelegates must decide who the best candidate is. And the voting has not begun.

It is your view that Hillary is the most likely to win the presidency. Others have a different view. Some see Hillary as a polarizing figure that will energize the Republican base enough to get out the vote so that McCain can win. Their hatred of Hillary is greater than their dislike of McCain.

Actually, it seems the Republicans like HRC better than Obama. They know HRC is a moderate, thus closer to them on the political spectrum.  The Republicans witnessed the Left wing of the Democratic party trying to push a moderate away in order to make room for a much more left wing candidate. True, Obama has made u-turns but his record for 2007 is the most liberal in the Senate and he has a very long history of close associations with extreme leftists. I've heard many accounts of Republicans saying they sympathize with and/or admire HRC. Of course they will overwhelmingly vote for McCain.  But the fact that HRC is closer in politics to the right and her greater popularity than Obama in highly conservative regions of the U.S. (i.e. South Dakota and West Virginia) indicate that Republicans prefer her over Obama.

Obama has a better ground game, a better get-out-the-vote organization, will employ the 50 state strategy, has a fund-raising advantage, will energize the black vote, and he is a most inspirational speaker to come along since JFK.

Perhaps, but HRC is much better at getting votes in swing states, and the general election is essentially a contest of who has the greater swing state support.

He is also the presumptive nominee which gives him a two month head start on Hillary if she were to get the nomination in August.

Good point, but Obama doesn't deserve the presumptive nominee status because there is no valid evidence that he is the voters' favorite and he is a much weaker general election candidate. HRC was treated unfairly by the DNC and the media and was the victim of the a large-scale prejudiced attack against her gender. Obama benefited enormously from sexism and from the DNCs and media's prejudice against HRC. And knowing that HRC was treated unfairly will influence voters' ballot decisions.

He has Hillary's full support. She has acknowledged that he is the party's choice. She is campaigning for him. She has called for her supporters to support Obama. When will you acknowledge this? After the convention?

HRC did not concede. She kept her delegates. She suspended her campaign. I believe HRC will jump at the chance to be nominee and everyone knows it. She wants to be president because she knows she can benefit Americans more than Obama and because she knows she is a much stronger general election candidate.

It is generally believed that the reason HRC is campaigning for Obama is because the DNC pressured her to do it. It is believed she had no choice if she wants to stay in the Democratic Party as an important member and continue to work effectively within their network. It was wrong for the DNC to do that to a historic woman presidential candidate. HRC is a survivor and a winner and she is doing what she believes is best for the time being.

Also, my vote is not just for HRC but for what I believe in. I choose to vote and to support a politician based on my personal beliefs.  I want HRC to win the nomination and she can win it and I believe she has the desire to win it. Therefore, I will continue to root for her to win the Democratic presidential nomination.

When the delegates vote at the convention then I will know who the nominee is and of course I will acknowledge it. Yet, that does not necessarily mean that I will vote for for a nominee other than HRC.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 07:20:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

I love it. You claim Republicans like Hillary as if that is a good reason for the Dems to nominate her over the pledged delegate leader. LMAO.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 07:30:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

You claim Republicans like Hillary as if that is a good reason for the Dems to nominate her over the pledged delegate leader.

I didn't actually say Republicans like HRC but that they prefer/like her better than Obama. Some Republicans do admire HRC. And as you know the reason I said Republicans prefer HRC to Obama was because you implied one of the reasons to select Obama as the nominee was because Republicans like him better thus would not mobilize as much to vote against him.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 09:39:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

No, I didn't say Republicans like Obama better. I said they hate him less. That's a big difference.


"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good." Samuel Johnson
by MS01 Indie on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 09:51:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's over. (none / 0)

They stopped polling Clinton in swing states back in June, when she conceded and gave Barack her support.
Come with us, Nancy, don't be left behind.
"Who are you for? That is the wrong question. It should be who is for you?" HRC
by skohayes on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not over. (2.00 / 1)

Clinton did not concede.  She suspended her candidacy. She can win if she gets enough superdelegate votes at the convention.

don't be left behind

We won't know who will be left behind until the general election.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

That's simply not possible anymore, unless Obama's unmasked as some sort of serial killer.  And current polling trends bode quite well for our nominee.

As I said yesterday, Obama's FISA stance removed any doubt that he'll be the noiminee in fact.  But I'm pissed as hell at him for voting the way he did.


by NewOaklandDem on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 04:53:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (2.00 / 1)

That's simply not possible anymore

Of course it's possible without a bizarre occurrence like you mentioned.  Gary Hart had to drop out before the convention because he had an affair. Clinton is a much stronger general election candidate, and that is reason enough for the superdelegates to vote for her.

Obama's FISA stance removed any doubt that he'll be the noiminee in fact.

I have no idea why you think Obama's unpopular FISA vote guarentees that he will be the nominee.


by Nancy Kallitechnis on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:21:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton deserves the nomination (none / 0)

Can you give me your best guess at the odds that the superdelegates will switch their pledged votes to Clinton at the convention because they suddenly "realize" that she would have been the better candidate?

I find them hovering between 0 and .01%, but that's just my guess.  Yours may be higher.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:41:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks Hillary, but no, thanks. (none / 0)

Primary made my mind. FISA vote make it definite.
Dear Hillary I love you but:
I believe to what you said 3 months and not to what you are saying now
And you know why!
Landslide of lies
by engels on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:45:39 PM EST


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