I'm sorry but 90% of you have no clue about the new FISA-[Updated w/ ACLU's Idiots Guide to FISA]

Having read several dairies on FISA and seen posters go "Man why are the FISA freaks freaking over this, duh?". How is our 4th amendment rights effected?

Do yourself a favor and read below the new bill that is set and coming towards you like a freight train hurdling itself against your constitutional rights. New FISA is not just a battle over the telcom immunity piece. The explanation below is relayed in baby steps, so no excuse for not comprehending FISA anymore.  YOU HAVE NO excuse continuing to be ill-informed and yet try to act like you know the new bill when commenting in those diaries.
---------------------------------------- -----------

The FISA deal announced on June 19 effectively grants retroactive immunity to companies that allegedly participated in the President's illegal wiretapping program, and it does not provide adequate protections for innocent Americans. Title I of the new bill, which includes a dramatic expansion of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, does not include the most significant safeguards approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee, and it does not include any of the amendments that Senator Feingold offered on the Senate floor earlier this year, each of which received 35 or more Democratic votes. These safeguards would have permitted the government to obtain the intelligence information it needs while also protecting the privacy of law-abiding Americans.

Background

The purpose of the bill is to address a problem that everyone agrees should be fixed - namely, making clear that the government does not have to get a warrant for foreign-to-foreign communications that happen to pass through the U.S. The new bill goes far beyond this narrow fix, however. It allows the government to listen in on international communications to and from law-abiding Americans in the U.S. who have no connections to terrorism, and the checks on this international dragnet authority are entirely inadequate.

Lengthy Sunset

The bill sunsets in December 2012, a mere one year earlier than the Senate bill and a presidential election year.

Little Protection Against Reverse Targeting

The bill prohibits intentionally targeting a person outside the U.S. without an individualized court order if "the purpose" is really to target someone reasonably believed to be in the U.S., and it requires the executive branch to establish guidelines for implementing this requirement. But the guidelines are not subject to judicial review, and the bill does not include provisions approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee bill that would require the government to obtain a court order whenever a significant purpose of the surveillance is to acquire the communications of an American. This important "significant purpose" language had the support of 38 Senators when offered on the Senate floor, and was included in the House bill.

No Prohibition on Bulk Collection

The bill does not include a prohibition on bulk collection - the collection of all international communications into and out of the U.S. to a whole continent or even the entire world. Such collection would be constitutionally suspect and would go well beyond what the government has says it needs to protect the American people. This protection was in the Senate Judiciary Committee bill, and it garnered the support of 37 Senators on the Senate floor.

Loophole for Advance Judicial Approval of Court Orders

Under the bill, surveillance can begin after the FISA Court authorizes the program, or if the Attorney General and Director of National Intelligence certify that they don't have time to get a court order and that intelligence important to national security may be lost or not timely acquired. This broad `exigency' exception could very well swallow the rule, and undermine any presumption of prior judicial approval.

No Limits on Use of Illegally Obtained Information

If the government goes forward with surveillance before obtaining court approval, and the court subsequently determines that the government's surveillance violated the law, the government can nonetheless keep and use any information it obtained. The compromise does not include a provision from the Senate Judiciary Committee bill that gives the FISA Court discretion to impose restrictions on the use of information about Americans acquired through procedures later determined to be illegal by the FISA court. This amendment had the support of 40 Senators on the Senate floor.

Few Protections for People in the United States

The bill does not include anything similar to the amendment offered by Senators Feingold, Webb and Tester (with 32 other Senators supporting) to provide additional checks and balances for Americans at home whose international communications are obtained because they are communicating with someone overseas, while also allowing the government to get the information it needs about terrorists and purely foreign communications.

Some Areas of Improvement

The bill contains some areas of improvement, but they do not address the serious privacy problems with the Senate bill.

The bill contains strong language making clear that FISA and the criminal wiretap laws are the exclusive means by which electronic surveillance may be conducted.

The bill contains an Inspector General review of the so-called "Terrorist Surveillance Program."

The bill no longer redefines the key FISA term of "electronic surveillance."

• [ACLU's Idiots Guide to FISA].

H.R. 6304 permits the government to conduct mass, untargeted surveillance of all communications coming into and out of the United States, without any individualized review, and without any finding of wrongdoing.

• H.R. 6304 permits only minimal court oversight. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA Court) only reviews general procedures for targeting and minimizing the use of information that is collected. The court may not know who, what or where will actually be tapped.

• H.R. 6304 contains a general ban on reverse targeting. However, it lacks stronger language that was contained in prior House bills that included clear statutory directives about when the government should return to the FISA court and obtain an individualized order if it wants to continue listening to a US person’s communications.

• H.R.6304 contains an “exigent” circumstance loophole that thwarts the prior judicial review requirement. The bill permits the government to start a spying program and wait to go to court for up to 7 days every time “intelligence important to the national security of the US may be lost or not timely acquired.” By definition, court applications take time and will delay the collection of information. It is highly unlikely there is a situation where this exception doesn’t swallow the rule.

• H.R. 6304 further trivializes court review by explicitly permitting the government to continue surveillance programs even if the application is denied by the court. The government has the authority to wiretap through the entire appeals process, and then keep and use whatever it gathered in the meantime.

• H.R. 6304 ensures the dismissal of all cases pending against the telecommunication companies that facilitated the warrantless wiretapping programs over the last 7 years. The test in the bill is not whether the government certifications were actually legal – only whether they were issued. Because it is public knowledge that they were, all the cases seeking to find out what these companies and the government did with our communications will be killed.

• Members of Congress not on Judiciary or Intelligence Committees are NOT guaranteed access to reports from the Attorney General, Director of National Intelligence, and Inspector General.



Display:


Re: I'm sorry but 90% of you have no clue (2.00 / 4)

My Fourth Amendment studies are a bit rusty, but if I recall correctly it has territorial limitations - it does not apply outside of the territorial U.S.  Given that, I don't see what is clearly unconstitutional regarding the majority of these provisions.


by rfahey22 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:54:59 PM EST

Thank you again, Sen. Feingold (2.00 / 5)

And Roxfoxy.  Have you read the bill, BTW?  I have.  Of course, I Am Not A Lawyer, but it doesn't take a lawyer to understand when what somebody says about the bill is directly and outright contradicted by clear language in the bill.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:57:23 PM EST

Sorry, that's not an explanation (2.00 / 7)

The bill does not include anything similar to the amendment offered by Senators Feingold, Webb and Tester (with 32 other Senators supporting) to provide additional checks and balances

What checks and balances?

Are the existing checks and balances inadequate, and why?

Why is Bulk Collection Constitutionally "suspect" as opposed to "Unconstitutional"? How do you propose to NOT bulk collect packet-switched data, for example? You can't separate the streams UNTIL you read the packets on the pipe.

Interesting, but it's intended to pursuade, not inform.


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 05:59:41 PM EST

Re: Sorry, that's not an explanation (2.00 / 1)

This is not what they offered it is what passed. Geez lol


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:03:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, that's not an explanation (2.00 / 5)

You didn't answer the questions asked.

What checks and balances?

Are the existing checks and balances inadequate, and why?

Why is Bulk Collection Constitutionally "suspect" as opposed to "Unconstitutional"? How do you propose to NOT bulk collect packet-switched data, for example? You can't separate the streams UNTIL you read the packets on the pipe.

This reads alternatively like a Wiki and an opinion piece: it makes broad statements without offering any substantive answers. If you can't answer simple questions about it, from both Neef and rfahey, then say so and we can investigate and figure it out ourselves.

But if people who read this are still asking questions, that doesn't mean they need to be "babysat" or laughed at, it means your (well, Senator Feingold's) argument isn't complete.

Yes, it's a very good press release from Sen. Feingold. However, it's a very poor reference manual for understanding FISA as a whole, which you claim it to be.


by TCQuad on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:23:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry, that's not an explanation (2.00 / 5)

Exactly.  After reading the responses from the diarist, it's obvious that they are unable to argue any of the points that they pasted from Feingold's site.  

The irony in this diary is pretty thick.


And so, may evil beware and may good dress warmly and eat lots of fresh vegetables.
by thatpurplestuff on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:35:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

butbutbut (2.00 / 3)

its just easier to spout talking points then to actually provide info.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:01:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

this is all we need to know about you (2.00 / 1)

have you seen his wife (1.00 / 4)

that could lead a man many places.

Victim Of Pro Hillary Censorship
by Brandon on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:33:02 PM PST
[ Reply to This ]  

that along with your sig line shows us exactly where you are coming from


by zerosumgame on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 11:35:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry but 90% of you have no clue (2.00 / 1)

The courts are going to knock this bill down.  Even the supreme court will see that this bill steps on civil rights. The democrats know this. Besides when Obama becomes president everything will change.


by Spanky on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 06:43:26 PM EST

The 90% appears (2.00 / 1)

to include you.

Question: under what circumstances, if any, is the Fourth Amendment implicated when the information gathered in alleged violation of the Amendment is not used for prosecutorial purposes?

Google it.  I'll wait.


by JJE on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:05:20 PM EST

Ironically (none / 0)

I agree with the literal title of the diary. I know I don't understand it, and I have tried. Google "FISA explained", and watch just how few (ok zero) explanations you see.

Now Google "Quantum Physics explained". Pages and pages.

How sad is that?


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

From Google (none / 0)

FISA 101
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2 008/02/14/fisa_101/

FISA explained in 35 Seconds
http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/02 02/fisa-explained-in-35-seconds

Both of these are from Feb., and they do a decent job of explaining.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:42:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

With all due respect (none / 0)

Feingold and Greenwald?

I'd have to call them...pretty biased sources. Feingold seems to interpret ANY wiretapping as a no-go, and I thought the issue was immunity.

I did see those by the way, but most sources are as partisan as those two.


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:50:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

hmmm (none / 0)

If partisan means doing what is RIGHT then I am all for partisan!


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: hmmm (none / 0)

Sadly, that ain't what it means.


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:27:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

depends on (none / 0)

who gives it the meaning.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: depends on (1.50 / 2)

"Words mean exactly what I want them to mean."


I am not a crook!
by username on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:37:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

what (none / 0)

do you mean?  ;)


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:39:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: what (none / 0)

sigh  Alice in Wonderland reference.  Nevermind...


I am not a crook!
by username on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:51:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was joking (2.00 / 1)

get it?

read again.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:55:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I was joking (2.00 / 1)

Sorry, hard to tell here sometimes...

In any case, I meant exactly what I wanted to mean. ;)


I am not a crook!
by username on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 10:59:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Careful there (none / 0)

I'm a proud and partisan Democrat, and I've got no problem with partisan conclusions based on facts. Unfortunately, what some (on both sides) try to offer are partisan facts, and that ain't cool.

I love Senator Feingold to pieces, but Neef has a point that he's a biased source of information. I still want him to be president because I trust his judgment, but I don't want to get my facts from him because he is a biased source. Hopefully, if given unbiased information, I will reach the same conclusions as him. But it's possible that I won't.

Getting all of your information from left-leaning blogs and our elected officials and candidates is worse than getting no information at all. It's worth it to do a little additional research and read what the other side says, too.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:19:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Careful there (none / 0)

Let me preemptively clarify.

I'm not saying Democratic politicians can't be trusted as a source of information. I'm saying they can't be trusted as the only source of information. They're pushing an agenda, too. Just because it's also our agenda doesn't mean we should just assume they're doing it right. We've got to do a little research and put a little thought into it ourselves.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:21:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Careful there (none / 0)

So says Bush and CO too right. Think about it.  Our great outrage for years on blogs with this NSA act seems to have fizzled / made an about turn this election season.

we have suddenly become the doubters .


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:38:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Careful there (none / 0)

Or enablers.


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:39:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Careful there (none / 0)

Hang on, I'm not sure that I follow you. Are you calling me an enabler, are you saying that I'm saying what Bush & Co. say, or are you agreeing with me?

Sorry if I'm a little dense tonight, I'm just not sure what you're saying in response to what I wrote.

I just want to be clear, I'm not blindly following Sen. Obama, but I'm not blindly following Sen. Feingold, either. I respect and admire both men and I'll certainly voting for Sen. Obama this fall (and hopefully Sen. Feingold in 2016...). But its stupid for anyone to just assume that their party's leaders are doing the right thing. You've got to educate yourself from a variety of sources.

So, yes, in a sense I agree with the essence of your diary-- that too many people don't know the details of the FISA bill (myself included). At the same time, you're also a very biased source. Frankly (and respectfully), I trust your information less than Sen. Feingold's.

Like I said, I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or refuting me. This is just how I feel about fact-based, informed politics. It's your civic duty, no matter your party affiliation, to find accurate, unbiased information.


Walberg Watch - Following Radical Conservative Rep. Tim Walberg in MI-07
by Fitzy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:02:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

For example (none / 0)

Thus, we're not all going to die under FISA. We're not "going dark." FISA is a modern law that was re-written at George Bush's direction and which he himself said allowed for full surveillance on all of the evil Terrorists and all of their complex, super-modern means of communications. None of this has anything to do with the Government's ability to listen in When Osama Calls. It is only about whether the nation's largest telecoms will have pending lawsuits, brought by their customers for breaking the law, dismissed by Congress. Is that really so hard to understand and explain?

Yes Glenn, it's hard. Is it about Unconstitutional wiretaps (4th Amendment) or Immunity?


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:53:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: With all due respect (none / 0)

That's my biggest complaint.  The issue isn't immunity, that's just part of the much bigger problem.  Telecom immunity is the least of our worries, in my opinion. OK, maybe not the least, but it is small potatoes, IMO.

No, the far more important issue is the warrant-less wiretapping, the lack of oversight and accountability, and the disastrous effects on our privacy.  As for Feingold and and Greenwald being biased, well, of course they are.  They're biased progressives.  By definition, anyone with an opinion is going to biased.  That doesn't mean they're wrong. And if you want right wingers who agree with these "biased" progressives, try Bob Barr, Ron Paul, and John Dean.

This just doesn't seem that complicated to me.  The FISA law allows the government to violate the fourth amendment by spying on the American people without a warrant. Precious little oversight or review is in the law.  This is a law that just asking to be abused.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:01:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry but 90% of you have no clue about th (2.00 / 4)

Dear roxfoxy,

What confuses me here is that you put all this time and energy into composing a diary on a subject you clearly have very strong convictions about, but then seem preemptively antagonistic towards anyone who wants clarification or to discuss it.  Regardless of past relationships in other diaries, it would serve us all better, and the issue you are devoted to here, to engage with your respondents instead of dismissing, evading and insulting them.  It's up to you of course.  Your diary.  But if you care so much about the issue, you might try to actually answer some of the comments in good faith.


The future is unwritten
by Strummerson on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:10:38 PM EST

Re: I'm sorry but 90% of you have no clue about th (none / 0)

You are right I have grown to a bit irritated with the just because I can argue clan here. The diary clearly addresses all aspects of 4th amendment violations on search and seizure e.  It's like I'm having discussion on town hall or any GOP website .


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:59:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Our Senators were in the dark: Clinton's statement (none / 0)

Here's, in part,  what the Senator said as she voted NO:

What is more, even as we considered this legislation, the administration refused to allow the overwhelming majority of Senators to examine the warrantless wiretapping program. This made it exceedingly difficult for those Senators who are not on the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees to assess the need for the operational details of the legislation, and whether greater protections are necessary. The same can be said for an assessment of the telecom immunity provisions. On an issue of such tremendous importance to our citizens - and in particular to New Yorkers - all Senators should have been entitled to receive briefings that would have enabled them to make an informed decision about the merits of this legislation. I cannot support this legislation when we know neither the nature of the surveillance activities authorized nor the role played by telecommunications companies granted immunity.

Did you realize that most of the Senate did not have such access?

Think about the absurdity of not allowing someone duly elected to the Senate by taxpaying Americans to examine the program -- a program run by unelected officials.

Is that democracy?

Nope.


by strongerthandirt on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:27:49 PM EST

Yeah, I noticed that (none / 0)

The corollary is that most of the votes on the bill were made with only a partial understanding.

Which is mind boggling.


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:29:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

After reading this and looking at the comments (none / 0)

Why exactly should I be up on arms about this?  Where is the all out attack on the 4th amendment? I just dont see it.


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:36:33 PM EST

check (none / 0)

FISA 101
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2 008/02/14/fisa_101/

FISA explained in 35 Seconds
http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/02 02/fisa-explained-in-35-seconds

Both of these are from Feb., and they do a decent job of explaining.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:43:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

oops! (none / 0)

fixxed links.

FISA 101
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2 008/02/14/fisa_101/

FISA explained in 35 Seconds
http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/02 02/fisa-explained-in-35-seconds

Both of these are from Feb., and they do a decent job of explaining.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:43:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: oops! (none / 0)

You realize it is not the same bill right?


"Is there no keeping with class in whom we mingle with anymore?"
by Brandon on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

yes (none / 0)

but does everyone also realize that the only thing that has ever needed changed in FISA was to add in new technologies?

What we have now is a "get out of jail free card" for bush and his fellow criminals/buddies.


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:55:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is ridiculous (2.00 / 1)

Rather than ridiculing the diarist for not answering every single question you can come up with, why not do your own research and get the facts yourselves?  The diarist (although certainly truculent and beligerent), did at least give people a head start on some information.  It really boggles the mind that so many progressives are suddenly unsure that this bizarre FISA renewal has any negative effect on the 4th amendment.  That doesn't even pass the smell test. Do you think the ACLU is suing just for the hell of it?

'The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.'

The right to privacy (and the need for a warrant) are inextricably bound up with the fourth amendment.  It seems quite clear to me.

A good explanation as to why this is so dangerous can be found here.


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 07:50:36 PM EST

What I find (2.00 / 2)

mind numbing is that it seems many of the hard core long time supporters of Obama are willing to give him a pass on anything.

The same has happened for Hillary with her hard core supporters and other candidates in the past.

If we are to have "real change" then we must Change this way of thinking.

Instead of nuancing in favor of tweaking the Constitution to favor the government and the corporations, why not do the opposite and lean towards We The People?

If We The People are not NUMBER 1, then WE LOSE!


Washington Woman

Progressive Blue

by kevin22262 on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:00:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have been wrestling with FISA and the Democratic (none / 0)

support that it received, including from Obama.  I have specifically been pondering how much my bias for wanting to get him into office instead of the alternative (for a huge number of reaons) is affecting my thoughts on this.

But at the end of the day my pragmatism on this is in line with the views of information security and privacy that I have been very vocal about for years.  At the base of it is: If you want to broadcast your communications outside your defined space (your home, your company) into public space (the street, the Internet) then you should be very aware that any number of entities are perfectly capable of listening in and you should take appropriate steps (strong encryption and traffic obfuscation).  If you do not take those steps then you should assume that you are broadcasting your words and actions in the clear in a public place.

Inasmuch as people assume that their clear-text communications across public spaces should be deemed private it creates a difficult dynamic when faced with the stark fact that those who wish us personal and cultural harm are highly motivated and capable.  Nation-states and independent organizations do in fact use our public communications systems to further their efforts against us, and our nation as an entity has a need to counter their intentions. Simultaneously, if we sink into a Big Brother police state we harm our culture by our own hand.  

I am not at all satisfied that the current Administration has balanced these needs appropriately, nor that continuing the brood on Penn Ave will correct that in any way.  But neither do I believe the world is coming to an end nor that we have crossed the line of Gestapo boots stomping down our front doors.

We certainly need to be very mindful of how we gather information in efforts to combat external threats, and how that information is used.  But we as individuals also need to come to realize that when we communicate in public without taking any effort to create secure channels we should assume that anybody can listen.

-chris


Motley Moose: Progress Through Politics
by chrisblask on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 12:20:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hi Denny (2.00 / 2)

The problem is, some of us HAVE tried to understand the bill, instead of relying on one or two biased sources. That's when you start to see how everyone disagrees with whats wrong with it.

Note this explanation from Glenn Greenwald:

Thus, we're not all going to die under FISA. We're not "going dark." FISA is a modern law that was re-written at George Bush's direction and which he himself said allowed for full surveillance on all of the evil Terrorists and all of their complex, super-modern means of communications. None of this has anything to do with the Government's ability to listen in When Osama Calls. It is only about whether the nation's largest telecoms will have pending lawsuits, brought by their customers for breaking the law, dismissed by Congress. Is that really so hard to understand and explain?

Do you see where Greenwald dismisses the 4th amendment implications, stating that Immunity is the problem? Are you a more informed source than he to imply that he's wrong?


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:00:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hi Denny (none / 0)

Greenwald is more about hollering about the telcom immunity than what the current bill states and allows.

We can do this all day but I raise you a greenwald with my ACLU thinking along my lines.

Let's see progressive blogger vs ACLU


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:07:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Fair enough (none / 0)

But that simply highlights the the fact that two very progressive, presumably informed sources can't even agree what's wrong.

And you know what...I'll see your two and raise you a Constitutional scholar who voted for the bill.

FISA is the monster under the bed. We don't know what it looks like, but it's AWFUL.


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:14:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hi Denny (none / 0)

You've taken, and out of context I should add,  a snippet of what Greenwald has written amd totally misrepesented his thoughts.

This is a no brainer. The fourth amendment has been trashed. And as horrendus as immunity clauses are, that portion of the bill pales in comparison to the loss of individual rights.


by jrole on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sorry (none / 0)

he specifically states "This is not about...". In my mind, that is a dismissal.

However, if you have a more revealing context, I would dearly love to see it. Seriously.


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:15:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Err, I mean (none / 0)

"It's only about...". An implied dismissal.


by Neef on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:16:46 PM EST

Thanks for the diary ...recommended because (2.00 / 1)

you tried to communicate to a low information person like myself about some of the crucial nuggets of the FISA bill. I would like to get your comments on the following:
  1. What constitutes actual listening in today's context? Does trapping electronics packets, digitizing them and continuously/randomly performing text and voice data mining constitutes infringment of individual rights? In the light of programs like Echelon don't you think US govt. already perform this action?
  2. Doesn't actual listening in this bill's context would mean some human interface manually switching in to listen into the conversation between two US citizens? Wouldn't that constitute an actual violation of the current law if done without a warrant from the FISA court? When it is an international call, I think that's a gray area and you are discussing that with rfahey22 as above..
  3. In the light of (1), if you think that (1) is violative of the 4th Amdt, how would you propose that such work can be performed (or should it be at all?) by our security agencies which doesn't violate the 4th amdt.
 
by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 08:41:04 PM EST

Re: Thanks for the diary ...recommended because (2.00 / 1)

Really not trying to be dismissive, but this seems pretty easy to me also. Listening does not necessarily mean a human being literally listening to a conversation.  It also encompasses electronic eavesdropping, intercepting emails, etc.  All of those things require a warrant under normal circumstances.

The solution is this:  there wasn't anything wrong with the old FISA law, as enacted in 1978. That law gave the government wide latitude to spy as needed before they got a warrant, as long as they  applied to the FISA court within 72 hours after the event.  They standards for issuing these warrants were very low. Since 1979, exactly 5 warrant applications have been denied. That's 5 out of more than 10,000. It was very, very easy to get those warrants, and you could even do it after the fact.  Why does the government possibly need greater surveillance powers to spy on Americans?


No Way. No How. No McCain.
by Denny Crane on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:15:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It is not intercepting emails which I'm talking (none / 0)

about..that action is similar to actively/manually listening in to a telephone conversation....I'm talking about automated data mining billions of digitized packets of electronic information for certain texts or conversation words by tapping a fiber optic telecon line in say ..somewhere lying at 2 mile depth in Indian Ocean..would that be violative of 4th Amendment...? I don't think it does..but then I'm not a law expert hence seeking expert opinion..


by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:30:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks for the diary ...recommended because (2.00 / 1)

1. All forms of communication trapping methods and any codecs or applications that assist such. Think all methods the FBI uses and then add the NSA's infrastructure to it.

2. Listening could include an actual person listening in vs. data mining. You do not need a warrant to listen till 7 days after having done so. In other words, listen, gather, and then seek warrant. Here is where the fun also continues- if you get rejected while you gather/listen, the govt. can appeal it and while the appeal is ongoing you can listen and keep and USE all the information you been gathering.

3. Simple get a warrant before you tap if an american citizen is involved on one end. Bill contains an "exigent" circumstance loophole that thwarts the prior judicial review requirement. The bill permits the government to start a spying program and wait to go to court for up to 7 days every time "intelligence important to the national security of the US may be lost or not timely acquired." By definition, court applications take time and will delay the collection of information. It is highly unlikely there is a situation where this exception doesn't swallow the rule.

Bill should have had the stronger language that was contained in prior House bills that included clear statutory directives about when the government should return to the FISA court and obtain an individualized order if it wants to continue listening to a US person's communications.


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:32:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've no problems with requirement of judicial (none / 0)

warrants before tapping in any conversation or electronic emails between two 'specific' US persons.
The grey area for me is does random mining packets of electronic information also constitutes a violation of 4th Amdt. These electron packets of information are from a random person X to random person Y in random place J in the World. This mining is a necessary action before you can identify who is really a target. If this violates the current law, then almost any security action would come to a halt.
by louisprandtl on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:50:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've no problems with requirement of judicial (2.00 / 1)

If it originates or ends in the US then to mine it you need a warrant. Now remember this is communication and not action. Actions (physical act being done upon) that look suspicious does fall under this surveillance act.

Again this is purely a surveillance act. So that secruity action wont be stopped by this   i.e. if there is a reasonable believe of an immediate physical threat perceived by law enforcement . They have the right to act.


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:53:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've no problems with requirement of judicial (2.00 / 1)

correction : should read "Actions (physical act being done upon) that look suspicious does not fall under this surveillance act.


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 11:55:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I'm sorry but 90% of you have no clue (2.00 / 2)

Actually, 90% of the people on this blog have opposed the FISA law and still do, regardless of whether they see it as an excuse to attack Obama.

But don't let that interfere with your self indulgent screed.


by Beren on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:13:03 PM EST

The only part that worries me (none / 0)

is the part that can't be repaired later.  The bill can be repealed someday.  The Congress can apologize.  The next Supreme Court could rule it unconstitutional.  There are many ways that damage can be mostly repaired.

But civil immunity for telecoms can't.  That is permanent.  That is what sticks in my craw.  We can't change our minds later, go "Oops!" and then remove the immunity later.  

And the lack of criminal immunity, which this bill does not confer, is not almost as good, despite what John Dean may say.  Bush is very likely and constitutionally capable of granting blanket pardons to everybody involved in illegal FISA spying.  And even if he doesn't, the next president is not likely to embroil his presidency in years of prosecution of the preceding presidency in what would surely turn into a Republican vs. Democrat pie fight.  That would not serve the public need of finding out EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID TO US THAT WAS ILLEGAL and making them explain.  That comes best and perhaps only through civil law suits.  And with civil immunity, in all likelihood, the true story of the Bush administrations spying will be allowed to rest in obscurity, to be an issue for later historians and not a case lesson on how a modern American democracy can go terribly wrong.

This is the only part that really pisses me off, and I'm at a loss to explain why it is happening.  None of the explanations I have heard to date make any sense.


by Dumbo on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:48:10 PM EST

Re: The only part that worries me (none / 0)

You have more hope in the Supreme Court and trust congress having the balls to overturn it in 2012. One year before the next round of elections.


He was warmly received by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who called him "a leader that God has blessed us with at this time."
by roxfoxy on Thu Jul 10, 2008 at 09:54:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Things To Reflect On, Re: FISA. (none / 0)

While I personally find Greenwald likely to be right.. That the 4th is quite safe from being overturned and that the problem is civil immunity.. One thing is very clear. The inability of progressives to unite on what was wrong, even now, is one of the likely reasons for the pushback couldn't get better results. I doubt it would have succeeded, but it is a valuable lesson how stupidly there is now bickering over which interpretation is the right one, and how that inhibits a proper response.

But in the end, I find this untroubling. The Telcoms can have their civil immunity. They can paint it on their chests and dance in the streets. The reason is trivially easy: Their warchest for civil claims filed against them will dwarf almost all those seeking standing to challenge.

Criminal immunity.. Well now, even the GOP had to admit that wasn't in there. And if you are not a fool, you will quickly realize any settlement from a civil trial would inflict pain on the whole company, even the poor bastards who have the thankless, menial jobs, unconnected with spying. Criminal prosecution is the only viable method to punish those responsible without them simply foisting the costs into the corporate ledgers.


In Pursuit Of A More Perfect Union...
by MartinK on Fri Jul 11, 2008 at 02:34:51 AM EST


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